Posts by Nicholaus Kopernicus

406

ex-jw-uk

by bigmac in

jw
friends

i'm quite new to this site, & have realised some members have a union jack symbol under their avatar.

i don't.. could we have a "show of hands" from any uk members?

i've already found several by reading older posts..

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Located on the periphery of London - SE.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

It is true that I do not embark upon Bible reading with a view to "finding fault". Rather, I read and engage in reflection / in meditation. To an extent, I borrow from the method(s) outlined in "Lectio Devina".

I have nothing against critical thinking either - but my focus for such tends to be on the WTBTS and to a lesser extent, other institutions / businesses. I recollect an interview given by Dr. Daniel Goleman several years ago (author of "Emotional Intelligence") who stated that there are basically three types of organisation....

a) Bottom line - goes to the very edge of legality (what it thinks it can get away with)

b) Stakeholder - looks to the interests of both its shareholders and customers

c) Ethical - governed by morality and ethics in conducting itself

Increasingly, my critical thinking tends towards me finding the WTBTS is a bottom line organisation. However, it is exceedingly good at putting on the most respectable of veneers.

Your method of examing the scriptures is not for me I'm afraid. As I said earllier, I enjoyed the Bible before I became a JW and continue to enjoy it now that I am (so I perceive anyway) on a slow path of egress from "the organisation".

What you say is interesting though and reminds me of the radio broadcasts every Saturday @ 1430 hrs BST on Premier Christian Radio called "Unbelievable". The progamme usually hosts a discussion between a Christian apologist and an athiest for example. Here are a few such programme themes.....

22nd August 15 - Is atheism a belief system? Andy Bannister vs Ed Turner

15th August 15 - The case from science for & against God – Peter Atkins vs Zachary Ardern

1st August 15 - Do the minimal facts support the resurrection? Gary Habermas & James Crossley

4th July 15 - John Lennox Premier Lecture - Going Against the Flow

Most of the broadcasts are still available as a podcast at the following webpage and might be of interest you.....

http://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes

I note your comment about Greek philosophy. This and other philosophies are quite interesting. I cannot but help thinking that the apostle Paul was influenced by the Greek philosophy in his time due to his statement at Romans 1:20 - "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." This strikes me as being rather like the reasoning of Aristotle and used later by Aquinas.

A modern individual who's work I enjoy reading is that of Isaiah Berlin, who wrote extensively about freedom (positive and negative freedom). Exposure to his work contributed significantly to me seeing the WTBTS for what it really is, but the catalyst for such an examination was ghastly conduct on the part of the local BoE. I have concluded that they behaved in the way they did as their minds are more continuously exposed to the environment of authority/power/control than are others. Thus they absorb that paradigm and project it to their detriment and that of others. That's my little bit of critical thinking for today!

This site we are sharing on is a fascinating one to read as there are a large number of individuals who are in one way or another "on a journey out of the Watchtower" as you put it. It is utterly incredulous, that the WTBTS urges so much effort into the recruitment of individuals on the one hand, only to devalue, bully, and otherwise control them such that those individuals at some time or other embark on an exit. So in many respects the WTBTS is rather self defeating.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Hello Half Banana:

Not at face value. I enjoy getting to the meaning of the scripture in its original language. One such example is the over used scripture among JW''s of Hebrews 13:17 - "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you..." This is used to control many JW's that's true. However, upon looking at the original language one can discern the following about "Be obedient" as used in the aforementioned scripture....

"Πείθεσθε" (Greek from Kingdom Interlinear)

VINES: "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom. 2:8; Jas. 3:3; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; ...... " So the "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.

However, this is often ignored by those among JW's who hold positions of authority. During a Sunday meeting earlier this year, I referenced the latter material and other information due to the local BoE having made a rule affecting me, and without any authority. I was subsequently warned by the CoBE about my answers. I gave a rebuttal to his warning by stating that everything in my answer was from Scripture, the Insight volume, and a magazine (thus avoiding subjectivity on my part and for my protection). This was ignored by him and I have not been back to any meetings of that congregation since. I warned the BoE as a whole to desist from visiting me or in any way trying to establish contact with me citing three pieces of legislation. I have not heard from any of them. Thus, I cannot concur that I'm being controlled in my case. Rather, I refuse to be controlled by JW's. However, I do get comfort from the Scriptures. This I did before becoming a JW. However, I no longer describe myself as a JW having reasoned on JW history and NWT - Acts 11:26. If you are interested, see my reasoning at

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/189730001/christian-divine-providence

Best wishes in your pursuit of philosophy.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Ah yes DATA-DOG:

I believe you are citing the beautiful words of John 14:26.....

“I have spoken these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.c 27 I leave you peace; I give you my peace.d I do not give it to you the way that the world gives it. Do not let your hearts be troubled nor let them shrink out of fear. "

I'm also reminded of a quotation in the Reasoning Book under Government where it says....

"Every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately collapsed. History is a tale of efforts that failed, or aspirations that weren’t realized. . . . So, as a historian, one has to live with a sense of the inevitability of tragedy.”—Henry Kissinger, political scientist and professor of government, as quoted in The New York Times, October 13, 1974, p. 30B"

The Governing Body would exclude their organisation from Dr. Kissinger's assessment. However, when one mentally (and otherwise) steps out of the organisation and looks in, we can see that same organisation is deteriorating.....

cash liquidity crisis
increasing law suits for acts of depravity against children the perpetrators of which tend to be protected
shepherds who in reality are Temple Police Officers and who bully the sheep
officials throughout the organisation who tend to think more of themselves than it's necessary to think
appaling leadership - capricious and deeply insecure typifying a cornered feral animal ready to bite you
highly stratified rather than the flattened Brotherhood which the Lord Jesus taught and intended
publishing books and journals which don't withstand even an elementary level of peer scutiny
ambivalence / idolatory - extoll the Bible but marginalise it in favour of elevating the FDS
so insecure they (GB) make excessive use of denial rather than the candour extolled in scripture
meetings which can be measured only in degrees of banality and one endures rather than enjoys

The fixation on real estate is also condemnatory - fruitage which has value on earth certainly, but not at all of any value from a spiritual perspective. What takes place within those many buildings is no longer edifying. The writing committee is suffering from Peter Principle.

10

SOLA SCRIPTURA VS THE MAGISTERIUM

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the reinvention of the magisterium.

in catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the church.

for the catholic church, that authority is vested uniquely in...... a) the pope and.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

THE REINVENTION OF THE MAGISTERIUM

In Catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the Church. For the Catholic Church, that authority is vested uniquely in.....

A) the pope and

B) the bishops who are in communion with him, and

C) Sacred Scripture and Tradition

Historically, this is rejected in protestantism in favour of sola scriptura. This is described as the Protestant Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice. Sola scriptura does not deny that other authorities govern Christian life and devotion, but sees them all as subordinate to and corrected by the written word of God.

Sola scriptura is a formal principle of many Protestant Christian denominations. It was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the Reformers, who taught that authentication of Scripture is governed by the discernible excellence of the text as well as the personal witness of the Holy Spirit to the heart of each man. Some Evangelical and Baptist denominations state the doctrine of sola scriptura more strongly: Scripture is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

For their part, Jehovah's Witnesses would laugh at any suggestion that they model their paradigm of doctinal authority on any triangulated idea like a magisterium. Rather, they would most likely have an intellectual affinity with sola scriptura. For example, in lesson 3 of the 2012 released brochure "Who Are Doing Jehovah's Will Today?", the following is portrayed as normative practice regarding bible study method and interpretation...

"Sincere men carefully studied the Bible. Those earnest Bible Students, our predecessors, pursued a method of study that we still use today. They discussed the Bible subject by subject. When they came across a Bible passage that was difficult to understand, they looked for other verses to explain it. When they arrived at a conclusion that harmonized with the rest of the Scriptures, they wrote it down. By thus letting the Bible interpret itself, they rediscovered the truth about God’s name and Kingdom, his purpose for mankind and the earth, the condition of the dead, and the hope of the resurrection. Their search set them free from many false beliefs and practices.—John 8:31, 32."

But in reality, this is not quite the case. For example, despite what is reproduced above, the reality is more like that stated in the Ministry School text (Study 22 - Scriptures Correctly Applied) where it is said....

Make sure that any application of a scripture is in harmony with the context and with the Bible as a whole. The application should also be in harmony with what has been published by “the faithful and discreet slave.”

Thus, Brothers and Sisters are to be deprived of the freedom to interpret scriptures for themselves. So here we have the duality of the Bible being a source of information in interpreting itself; but one has to be in deference to the understanding of the "faithful and discreet slave". Are we creeping towards the paradigm of a magisterium here? From this statement, it seems that the "faithful and discrete slave" no longer agree with the Apostle Paul who stated that via scripture, the man of God can be "completely equipped". No, it is both Scripture and the "faithful and discreet slave" which are needed to be "completely equipped". So the unstated reality seems to be that Jehovah's Witnesses have rediscovered the Magisterium....

A) The Governing Body and Sacred Scripture

B) The GB helpers and writing committee

C) The vast body of writings published hitherto and body of established institutional legalisms

Thus we have a significant connceptual emulation of the institutions of Christendom, and of the Catholic Church in particular. A highly stratified institution of Jehovah's Witnesses which paradoxically seeks to portray itself as a "brotherhood" despite the reality being that it is a "hierarchy". Several years ago, a Dr. Christine King was lauded for her work in positively portraying the Witnesses for their stand against the Nazi state in the 1930's. However, the GB's writing committee remained silent about her written statement in that same work, that the organisation is a "hierarchy". A "Brother" is unlikely to be seen as "noble minded" for being a diligent student of the scriptures in the pattern of sola scriptura. Indeed, he may find that he is labelled negatively as "independent".

Instead of a Papacy and conclave of Cardinals, we have a Governing Body with its helpers and Branch Overseers (Cardinals) in many countries. One difference is that the Catholic Church openly documents and extolls its Magisterium for arriving at its doctine and teaching. However, the WTBTS / GB / FDS portrays a confused (perhaps even duplicitous) picture of extolling sola scriptura, whilst in reality emulating a type of Magisterium structure. For decades, they have severely disparaged the Catholic Church. This having been said, I note that when a youngster my seniors made use of the idiom that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"!

9

"THE TRUTH" & "THE WAY"

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

when speaking of "the truth" jehovah's witnesses may have in mind several contexts, including.... "... the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible..." w08 12/15 p. 27-p. 29 par.

13and/or the body of knowledge determined by the "... highest ecclesiastical authority for the faith of jehovah's witnesses..." which is arrived at and sanctioned by the governing body and as stated by gerrit losch in his legal submission to the supreme court of california in february 2014.indeed, most jehovah's witnesses may not discriminate between these two perspectives and will likely envisage the body of knowledge determined by the gb as synonymous with that stated in the aforementioned 2008 wt magazine ("entire body of christian teachings").

however, a number of dissenting/analytical jehovah's witnesses, former congregants, etc., will discern an increasing gulf between that which is scripturally derived / determined, and the body of knowledge arrrived at by the gb.gerrit losch in the following magazine article "w12 8/1 p. 28 champions of the truth" is noted as having asked....''how do we know we have the truth?

Nicholaus Kopernicus

When speaking of "the truth" Jehovah's Witnesses may have in mind several contexts, including...

"... the entire body of Christian teachings that has become part of the Bible..." w08 12/15 p. 27-p. 29 par. 13
and/or the body of knowledge determined by the "... highest ecclesiastical authority for the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses..." which is arrived at and sanctioned by the Governing Body and as stated by Gerrit Lösch in his legal submission to the supreme court of California in February 2014.

Indeed, most Jehovah's Witnesses may not discriminate between these two perspectives and will likely envisage the body of knowledge determined by the GB as synonymous with that stated in the aforementioned 2008 WT magazine ("entire body of Christian teachings"). However, a number of dissenting/analytical Jehovah's Witnesses, former congregants, etc., will discern an increasing gulf between that which is scripturally derived / determined, and the body of knowledge arrrived at by the GB.

Gerrit Lösch in the following magazine article "w12 8/1 p. 28 Champions of the Truth" is noted as having asked....
''“How do we know we have the truth?” asked Brother Lösch." One of five criteria listed in the magazine is that "We remain in Jesus’ teaching". For brevity, that Jehovah's Witnesses have significantly deviated from Jesus' teachings will be regarded as a given rather than being reasoned on in any detail here.

So, I for one am not comfortable in describing my faith as "the truth", for not only would I be complicit in suggesting that I am acquiescent with the teachings of the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I would also risk being seen as part and parcel of the discounting of Jesus' role in Christian living. So I need an alternative way of describing my faith. If a brother or sister asked me....

How did you come into "the truth"?
Who brought you into "the truth"?
What attracted you to "the truth"?

I would for example, need some means of answering which is convergent with scripture on the one hand, but which also serves to distance me from being a part of the corporate WT "truth". (No difficulty at all with Jesus being the truth, and no difficulty with the truth of God's Word. Sole problem is in the use of this term as a descriptor of the beliefs and faith of Jehovah's Witnesses, and hitherto my descriptor.)

Additionally, the frequent revisions of doctrine and understanding in the 21st century thus far significantly undermine any case that what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, can be regarded as "the truth". Were it actually so, that what they believed was really "the truth", then surely that body of knowledge would be consistent with scripture such that those beliefs wouldn't change just like the Bible doesn't change? How is it possible to continue as a Jehovah's Witness in terms of referring to one's faith as "the truth" when faced with such frequent changes to what they believe? What a paradox! How unsettling this capriciousness is upon many!

I have written previously, why I can no longer describe myself as a Jehovah's Witness, and have given a rationale as to why I will describe myself as Christian only (Acts 11:26). So too, I now feel the need to discard that which I held dearly as "the truth" for an alternative description. I might be able to put across to individuals that what I believe is actually "the truth", but to continue with that term would infer that I am convergent with the body of knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses (as arrrived at and sanctioned by their GB). I would much rather describe my body of knowledge (bearing in mind that I am a ongoing student of God's Word) in a way which is more oriented to the Holy Bible and puts distance between my beliefs and the teachings of the GB and their assistants.

Note the following excerpt from the magazine... *** w02 7/15 pp. 15-20 Christians Worship With Spirit and Truth ***
The Truth and Beliefs14 Jehovah’s written Word was highly esteemed by the early Christians. (John 17:17) It was their standard regarding beliefs and practices. Clement of Alexandria of the second and third centuries said: “They who are laboring after excellency will not stop in their search after truth, until they have obtained proof of that which they believe from the Scriptures themselves.”

These are nice words. Many Jehovah's Witnesses continue to esteem Jehovah's written Word. Many too esteem the output of the GB. That having been said, the reduction in exposure to God's Word in Kingdom Halls is regrettable - No 1 Bible reading curtailed to 3 minutes and the Bible Highlights curtailed to 8 minutes are but two manifest measurable examples. The Bible is no longer the standard regarding their beliefs and practices too. Rather, such standards are to be found in the secret text "Shepherding the Flock of God", letters from branches addressed to BoE's, and dissemination of information to BoE's during CO visits and at schools for BoE's. (All of this is out of sight of "publishers" to a large extent). With this significant change in emphasis, I have yet another imperative for finding an alternative descriptor of my beliefs to being that of "the truth". I am reminded of the picture in the Bible Really Teach Book - that of a dirty lollipop. We are advised of the potential for damage were we to lick, suck, or otherwise chew on such a lollipop. Well, increasingly I have been realising that "the truth" as delineated by Jehovah's Witnesses has become rather like that dirty lollipop. Perhaps this has come about as a result of the "Man of Lawlessness" having invaded Jehovah's Witnesses. In any case, I am feeling a bit dirty and need to have a spiritual shower.

In my study and reading of the Bible I note that "The Way" is emphasised as characteristic of Christian living in Acts 9:2 and Paul (prior to his enlightenment) described those whom he was pursuing as those "who belonged to The Way". He may have referred to Christians in such a manner and at that time due to his perception that they were distinctive by their way of life.

This term is elaborated upon in the Insight volume as follows.....it-2 p. 1174 - WAY, THE
This expression can be applied to a road, street, track, or path; a mode of action or conduct; or a normal course, manner, or method. In the Scriptures it is often used with reference to a course of conduct and action that is either approved or disapproved by Jehovah God. (Jg 2:22; 2Ki 21:22; Ps 27:11; 32:8; 86:11; Isa 30:21; Jer 7:23; 10:23; 21:8) With the coming of Jesus Christ, an individual’s enjoying a proper relationship with God and approaching him acceptably in prayer depended on acceptance of Jesus Christ. As the Son of God stated: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (Joh 14:6; Heb 10:19-22) Those who became followers of Jesus Christ were spoken of as belonging to “The Way,” that is, they adhered to a way or manner of life that centered around faith in Jesus Christ, following his example.—Ac 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:22.

Additionally, the following text has this to say about Jesus being "the way"....cf chap. 2 pp. 14-23 - “I AM THE WAY”

".... Jesus is “the way” in that only through him can we enter into an approved relationship with God.

Jesus is “the way” when it comes to prayer. Only through Jesus can we go to Jehovah in prayer with the assurance that our heartfelt petitions will be favorably heard.

Jesus is “the way” in yet another sense—by his example. ....Jesus perfectly imitated his Father. Jesus’ example thus shows us how to live so as to please Jehovah. To approach Jehovah, then, we must walk in the footsteps of Jesus.—1 Peter 2:21."

This is a refreshing affirmation for me to read. So I have arrived at my alternative descriptor - "The Way". Should I be asked the questions mentioned earlier. I could say...Well actually brother/sister, I don't describe myself as "being in the truth", as "having the truth". Rather, I describe myself as making every endeavour I reasonably can to be a follower of "The Way" exemplified in Jesus' life and teachings, and as mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Acts 9:2.

So Jesus is The Way

A Christian Belongs to The Way

What a Christian believes is convergent with The Way

"I am the fine shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me" (John 10:14)

"My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27)

9

IMITATE JESUS REGIONAL CONVENTION - BRIGHTON, WEST SUSSEX (UK)

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

train, trust, and empower others, as jesus does (luke 8:1; 9:1; 10:1)speaker opened by stating that there was a need for "harvest workers" and "shepherds" as the worldwide membership of jehovah's witnesses is now 8.2 million.

he then went on to state how jesus willingly gave responsibillity to others and that this pattern would be considered further.he briefly examined...john 1:3 - jesus' role in creationisaiah 50:4 - prophecy regarding the messiahisaiah 50:5 - schooling of the messiah2 tim 2:2 - timothy urged to entrust responsibilities to "faithful men".speaker stated that jesus trained, trusted and empowered his followers.

he cited luke 8:1 as an example of how jesus accomplished such training.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

Oh yes konceptua99 - a saving on the Amex stadium prices too! I nearly walked out for a coffee during the last item in the morning symposium - "Heal". They showed a vignette of a grieving father who lost his son to suicide. The elder was "helping" the individual to "heal" by teaching him to access either JW.org or the WT library CD rom on a laptop. Too technocratic for me in circumstances given. Humanity and listening was absent. Smacks of Peter Principle. I wouldn't use latter two resources to help anyone in those circumstances.

If this was an actual event which really did help someone then well and good. But to take that one event and recommend it as a generic intervention for such traumatised individuals can be cruel and unloving when what the individual needs is another's humanity, listening ear, time and support. One thing the WT won't do is recommend that an individual gets supportive counselling which the WT society disdains. One could make a case for arrogance on the part of the WT due to their expectation of individuals relying on the information which they publish to the exclusion of other sources of tried and trusted information and help.

This was a really difficult one to sit through, though I'm glad I did. To hear from an organisation advocating healing when it and its agents (elders - aka Temple Police) tend to harm is quite a paradox. This and the other talks tend to evidence the appaling quality of output from those in the writing committee. They too exemplify Peter Principle in that they are substantially incapable of encouragement, refreshment, or stimulation. The only positive thing I can discern at this time is that many more individuals will become aware of this organisation's entrenched nihilism and then cease contributing funds.

9

IMITATE JESUS REGIONAL CONVENTION - BRIGHTON, WEST SUSSEX (UK)

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

train, trust, and empower others, as jesus does (luke 8:1; 9:1; 10:1)speaker opened by stating that there was a need for "harvest workers" and "shepherds" as the worldwide membership of jehovah's witnesses is now 8.2 million.

he then went on to state how jesus willingly gave responsibillity to others and that this pattern would be considered further.he briefly examined...john 1:3 - jesus' role in creationisaiah 50:4 - prophecy regarding the messiahisaiah 50:5 - schooling of the messiah2 tim 2:2 - timothy urged to entrust responsibilities to "faithful men".speaker stated that jesus trained, trusted and empowered his followers.

he cited luke 8:1 as an example of how jesus accomplished such training.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

So sorry to hear of how your family has been treated. Truly eggregious! Jesus' illustration of fruitage is so pertinent.

Your husband is now able to have more time with his family without "privileges". He will hopefully see himself as embarking on a road to increasing freedom (John 8:36).

"Privileges" in this organisation come with a cost to one's health such that they're best avoided.

6

IMITATE JESUS REGIONAL CONVENTION - BRIGHTON IN WEST SUSSEX (UK)

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

imitate jesus, not the phariseesbe reasonableyoung speaker (early to mid 30's) gave this item in brighton.speaker cited luke 12:1 - guard against the leven (yeast - niv) of the pharisees.

went on to cite psalm 103:14 as an example of god's reasonableness in that he "remembers we are dust" and is thus merciful.

showed video portrayal of the haemorrhaging woman who touched jesus' clothing.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

I think it was 32. That's not many, but the British branch will put the best possible gloss on the numbers at the close of the convention season.

6

IMITATE JESUS REGIONAL CONVENTION - BRIGHTON IN WEST SUSSEX (UK)

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

imitate jesus, not the phariseesbe reasonableyoung speaker (early to mid 30's) gave this item in brighton.speaker cited luke 12:1 - guard against the leven (yeast - niv) of the pharisees.

went on to cite psalm 103:14 as an example of god's reasonableness in that he "remembers we are dust" and is thus merciful.

showed video portrayal of the haemorrhaging woman who touched jesus' clothing.

Nicholaus Kopernicus

I think the number given was 32 - not many. But I'm sure the British branch will put the best gloss on the numbers when the convention season is over.